Amaryl still had the mark of his early years as a heatsinker. He had the broad shoulders and the muscular build of one who had been used to hard physical labor. He had not allowed his body to turn flabby and that was a good thing, for it inspired Seldon to resist the impulse to spend all of his time at the desk as well. He did not have Amaryl's sheer physical strength, but he still had his own talents as a Twister-for all that he had just turned forty and could not keep it up forever. But for now, he would continue. Thanks to his daily workouts, his waist was still trim, his legs and arms firm.
He said, "This concern for Demerzel cannot be purely a matter of his being a friend of mine. You must have some other motive."
"There's no puzzle to that. As long as you're a friend of Demerzel, your position here at the University is secure and you can continue to work on psychohistorical research."
"There you are. So I do have a reason to be friends with him. It isn't beyond your understanding at all."
"You have an interest in cultivating him. That, I understand. But as for friendship-that, I don't understand. However-if Demerzel lost power, quite apart from the effect it might have on your position, then Cleon himself would be running the Empire and the rate of its decline would increase. Anarchy might then be upon us before we have worked out all the implications of psychohistory and made it possible for the science to save all humanity."
"I see. But, you know, I honestly don't think that we're going to work out psychohistory in time to prevent the Fall of the Empire."
"Even if we could not prevent the Fall, we could cushion the effects, couldn't we?"
"Perhaps."
"There you are, then. The longer we have to work in peace, the greater the chance we will have to prevent the Fall or, at least, ameliorate the effects. Since that is the case, working backward, it may be necessary to save Demerzel, whether we-or, at least, I-like it or not."
"Yet you just said that you would like to see him out of the Palace and away from Trantor and beyond the Empire."
"Yes, under ideal conditions, I said. But we are not living under ideal conditions and we need our First Minister, even if he is an instrument of repression and despotism."
"I see. But why do you think the Empire is so close to dissolution that the loss of a First Minister will bring it about?"
"Psychohistory."
"Are you using it for predictions? We haven't even gotten the framework in place. What predictions can you make?"
"There's intuition, Hari."
"There's always been intuition. We want something more, don't we? We want a mathematical treatment that will give us probabilities of specific future developments under this condition or that. If intuition suffices to guide us, we don't need psychohistory at all."
"It's not necessarily a matter of one or the other, Hari. I'm talking about both: the combination, which may be better than either-at least until psychohistory is perfected."
"If ever," said Seldon. "But tell me, where does this danger to Demerzel arise? What is it that is likely to harm him or overthrow him? Are we talking about Demerzel's overthrow?"
"Yes," said Amaryl and a grim look settled on his face.
"Then tell me. Have pity on my ignorance."
Amaryl flushed. "You're being condescending, Hari. Surely you've heard of Jo-Jo Joranum."
"Certainly. He's a demagogue- Wait, where's he from? Nishaya, right? A very unimportant world. Goat herding, I think. High-quality cheeses."
"That's it. Not just a demagogue, however. He commands a strong following and it's getting stronger. He aims, he says, for social justice and greater political involvement by the people."
"Yes," said Seldon. "I've heard that much. His slogan is: `Government belongs to the people.'"
"Not quite, Hari. He says: `Government is the people.'"
Seldon nodded. "Well, you know, I rather sympathize with the thought."
"So do I. I'm all for it-if Joranum meant it. But he doesn't, except as a stepping-stone. It's a path, not a goal. He wants to get rid of Demerzel. After that it will be easy to manipulate Cleon. Then Joranum will take the throne himself and he will be the people. You've told me yourself that there have been a number of episodes of this sort in Imperial history-and these days the Empire is weaker and less stable than it used to be. A blow which, in earlier centuries, merely staggered it might now shatter it. The Empire will welter in civil war and never recover and we won't have psychohistory in place to teach us what must be done."
"Yes, I see your point, but surely it's not going to be that easy to get rid of Demerzel."
"You don't know how strong Joranum is growing."
"It doesn't matter how strong he's growing." A shadow of thought seemed to pass over Seldon's brow. "I wonder that his parents came to name him Jo-Jo. There's something juvenile about that name."
"His parents had nothing to do with it. His real name is Laskin, a very common name on Nishaya. He chose Jo-Jo himself, presumably from the first syllable of his last name."
"The more fool he, wouldn't you say?"
"No, I wouldn't. His followers shout it Jo... Jo... Jo... Jo'-over and over. It's hypnotic."
"Well," said Seldon, making a move to return to his tricomputer and adjust the multidimensional simulation it had created, "we'll see what happens."
"Can you be that casual about it? I'm telling you the danger is imminent."
"No, it isn't," said Seldon, eyes steely, his voice suddenly hardening. "You don't have all the facts."