Trevize said, "You mean you will elicit statements from me that will reinforce the official version of what I am supposed to have done."
"We ask you only to make truthful statements, and I assure you we will not distort them. Please, let me try again. We were talking about Hari Seldon." The recording device was in action once more and Kodell repeated calmly, "That he never evolved the science of psychohistory?"
"Of course he evolved the science that we call psychohistory," said Trevize, failing to mask his impatience, and gesturing with exasperated passion.
"Which you would define - how?"
"Galaxy! It is usually defined as that branch of mathematics that deals with the overall reactions of large groups of human beings to given stimuli under given conditions. In other words, it is supposed to predict social and historical changes - "
"You say 'supposed to' Do you question that from the standpoint of mathematical expertise?"
"No," said Trevize. "I am not a psychohistorian. Nor is any member of the Foundation government, nor any citizen of Terminus, nor any..."
Kodell's hand raised. He said softly, "Councilman, please!" and Trevize was silent.
Kodell said, "Have you any reason to suppose that Hari Seldon did not make the necessary analysis that would combine, as efficiently as possible, the factors of maximum probability and shortest duration in the path leading from the First to the Second Empire by way of the Foundation?"
"I wasn't there," said Trevize sardonically. "How can I know?"
"Can you know he didn't?"
"No."
"Do you deny, perhaps, that the holographic image of Hari Seldon that has appeared during each of a number of historical crises over the past five hundred years is, in actual fact, a reproduction of Hari Seldon himself, made in the last year of his life, shortly before the establishment of the Foundation?"
"I suppose I can't deny that."
"You 'suppose.' Would you care to say that it is a fraud, a hoax devised by someone in past history for some purpose?"
Trevize sighed. "No. I am not maintaining that."
"Are you prepared to maintain that the messages that Hari Seldon delivers are in any way manipulated by anyone at all?"
"No. I have no reason to think that such manipulation is either possible or useful."
"I see. You witnessed this most recent appearance of Seldon's image. Did you find that his analysis - prepared five hundred years ago - did not match the actual conditions of today quite closely?"
"On the contrary," said Trevize with sudden glee. "It matched very closely."
Kodell seemed indifferent to the other's emotion. "And yet, Councilman, after the appearance of Seldon, you still maintain that the Seldon Plan does not exist."
"Of course I do. I maintain it does not exist precisely because the analysis matched so perfectly."
Kodell had turned off the recorder. "Councilman," he said, shaking his head, "you put me to the trouble of erasing. I ask if you still maintain this odd belief of yours and you start giving me reasons. Let me repeat my question."
He said, "And yet, Councilman, after the appearance of Seldon, you still maintain that the Seldon Plan does not exist."
"How do you know that? no one had a chance to speak to my informer friend, Compor, after the appearance."
"Let us say we guessed, Councilman. And let us say you have already answered, 'Of course I do' If you will say that once more without volunteering added information, we can get on with it."
"Of course I do," said Trevize ironically.
"Well," said Kodell, "I will choose whichever of the 'Of course I do's' sounds more natural. Thank you, Councilman," and the recording device was turned off again.
Trevize said, "Is that it?"
"For what I need, yes."
"What you need, quite clearly, is a set of questions and answers that you can present to Terminus and to all the Foundation Federation which it rules, in order to show that I accept the legend of the Seldon Plan totally. That will make any denial of it that I later make seem quixotic or outright insane."
"Or even treasonable in the eyes of an excited multitude which sees the Plan as essential to the Foundation's safety. It will perhaps not be necessary to publicize this, Councilman Trevize, if we can come to some understanding, but if it should prove necessary we will see to it that the Federation hears."
"Are you fool enough, sir," said Trevize, frowning, "to be entirely uninterested in what I really have to say?"
"As a human being I am very interested, and if an appropriate time comes I will listen to you with interest and a certain amount of skepticism. As Director of Security, however, I have, at the present moment, exactly what I want"
"I hope you know that this will do you, and the Mayor, no good."
"Oddly enough, I am not at all of that opinion. You will now leave. Under guard, of course."
"Where am I to be taken?"
Kodell merely smiled. "Good-bye, Councilman. You were not perfectly co-operative, but it would have been unrealistic to have expected you to be."
He held out his hand.
Trevize, standing up, ignored it. He smoothed the creases out of his sash and said, "You only delay the inevitable. Others must think as I do now, or will come to think that way later. To imprison me or to kill me will serve to inspire wonder and, eventually, accelerate such thinking. In the end the truth and I shall win."
Kodell took back his hand and shook his head slowly. "Really, Trevize," he said. "You are a fool."